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GROSSƒ УУСр6Ж&СCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERSƒ Ср~Ж'С1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.ƒ (202) 234Љ4433СрžЖ)СWASHINGTON, D.C. 20005ƒС` !ќ$FС(202) 234Љ4433еа ААLX аDOL TITLECA<CAЦgDOL Title Page=pЖaХF2CACA_ЏYY‹ F-2 F-CA34ааа ААHH аеXб#ѕxžž@X@#ба pм4X ав€,,Д<,,Д<€вкЁˆLф*4HLф*б#px Œ P X@#б Ёк в€ШШШШУ У1Ф ФШШШШУ У1Ф Ф€вкИ<<м<<<<б#px Œ P X@#б 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 кеааџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџ˜  pШџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџАџџааа 4Xша аDOL FORMATAICAЦgDOL CASE FORMAT=pЖaХF2CACA_Џѓѓ‹ F-2 F-CAJ56ааааа ААHH аааџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџф џџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџАџџаае<Xб#ѕxžž@ X@#ба ша4X аааџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџф џџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџАџџаав€,,Д<,,Д<€вкLф*HLф*б#px Œ P X@#бааџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџф џџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџАџџаа С`\ф8Ск гаЁг<еа 4Xша аDOL INDEXCALCAЦgDOL INDEXЏ=pЖaХF2CACA_Џ‹ F-2 F-CA78ееа ААHH ае Xб#ѕxžž@ X@#ба ша4X ав€,,Д<,,Д<€вкЋˆLф*4HLф*б#px Œ PX@#б С`\ф8СЋк в€ШШШШУ У1Ф ФШШШШУ У1Ф Ф€вкИ<<м<<<<б#px Œ PX@#б 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 к еа 4Xша аааџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџшШР!џџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџАџџааћџ2лOЩ)9†ђ>žxD ХJNLRB FormatPCAЦgNLRB Case FormatpЖaХF2CACA_ЏGG‹ F-2 F-CAq9:ааааа ААHH аааџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџШ џџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџАџџаае<Xб#ѕxžž@X@#ба ша4X аааџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџШ џџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџАџџаав€,,Д<,,Д<€вкLф*HLф*б#px Œ PX@#бааџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџШ џџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџАџџаа С`\ф8Ск гаЁг<ее#Xб#ѕxžž@X@#ба 4X4X аааџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџШ џџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџАџџаа #еа 4Xша аNLRB Title PCAЦgNLRB Title Page=pЖaХF2CACA_Џ‹ F-2 F-CA.;<ааа ААHH аеXб#ѕxžž@X@#ба ша4X ав€,,Д<,,Д<€вкЁˆLф*4HLф*б#px Œ PX@#б Ёк в€ШШШШУ У1Ф ФШШШШУ У1Ф Ф€вкИ<<м<<<<б#px Œ PX@#б 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Œ25 кеааџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџ˜  pШџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџАџџаае#Xб#ѕxžž@X@#ба 4X4X аааџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџ˜  pШџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџАџџаа #еа 4Xша аNLRB IndexAYCAЦgNLRB Index=pЖaХF2CACA_ЏЗЗ‹ F-2 F-CAF=>ееа ААHH ае Xб#ѕxžž@X@#ба ша4X ав€,,Д<,,Д<€вкЋˆLф*4HLф*б#px Œ PX@#б С`\ф8СЋк в€ШШШШУ У1Ф ФШШШШУ У1Ф Ф€вкИ<<м<<<<б#px Œ PX@#б 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Œ25 к ее#Xб#ѕxžž@X@#ба 4X4X аааџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџ˜  pШџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџАџџаа #еа 4Xша аааџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџшШР!џџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџАџџааNTSB Title PCAЦgNTSB Title Page=pЖaХF2CACA_Џ§§‹ F-2 F-CA m?@ааа ААHH аеXб#ѕxžž@X@#ба ша4X ав€,,Д<,,Д<€вкЁˆLф*4HLф*б#px Œ PX@#б Ёк в€ШШШШУ У1Ф ФШШШШУ У1Ф Ф€вкИ<<м<<<<б#px Œ PX@#б 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Œ25 кеааџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџ˜  pШџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџАџџааеbXб#ѕxžž@X@#ба 4X4X аааџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџ˜  pШџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџАџџаа Срвк!СHeritage Reporting Corporationƒ Ср’к)С(202) 628Љ4888bеа 4Xша аћџ2”g! P"нV#Хђ[$нЗaNTSB FormatcCAЦgNTSB Case FormatpЖaХF2CACA_ЏCC‹ F-2 F-CA!АABааааа ААHH аааџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџф џџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџАџџаае<Xб#ѕxžž@X@#ба ша4X аааџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџф џџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџАџџаав€,,Д<,,Д<€вкLф*HLф*б#px Œ P X@#бааџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџф џџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџАџџаа С`\ф8Ск гаЁг<ееbXб#ѕxžž@!X@#ба 4X4X аааџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџф џџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџАџџаа Срвк!СHeritage Reporting Corporationƒ Ср’к)С(202) 628Љ4888bеа 4Xша аNTSB IndexAgCAЦgNTSB Index=pЖaХF2CACA_Џ‰‰‹ F-2 F-CA"…CDееа ААHH ае Xб#ѕxžž@"X@#ба ша4X ав€,,Д<,,Д<€вкЋˆLф*4HLф*б#px Œ P#X@#б С`\ф8СЋк в€ШШШШУ У1Ф ФШШШШУ У1Ф Ф€вкИ<<м<<<<б#px Œ P$X@#б 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Œ25 к ееbXб#ѕxžž@%X@#ба 4X4X аааџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџ˜  pШџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџАџџаа Срвк!СHeritage Reporting Corporationƒ Ср’к)С(202) 628Љ4888bеа 4Xша аааџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџшШР!џџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџАџџааSEC Title PgCAЦgSEC Title Page=pЖaХF2CACA_ЏСС‹ F-2 F-CA#mEFааа ААHH аеXб#ѕxžž@&X@#ба ша4X ав€,,Д<,,Д<€вкЁˆLф*4HLф*б#px Œ P'X@#б Ёк в€ШШШШУ У1Ф ФШШШШУ У1Ф Ф€вкИ<<м<<<<б#px Œ P(X@#б 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Œ25 кеааџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџ˜  pШџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџАџџааеbXб#ѕxžž@)X@#ба 4X4X аааџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџ˜  pШџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџАџџаа Срвк!СHeritage Reporting Corporationƒ Ср’к)С(202) 628Љ4888bеа 4Xша аSEC IndexCAqCAЦgSEC IndexЏ=pЖaХF2CACA_Џ‹ F-2 F-CA$…GHееа ААHH ае Xб#ѕxžž@*X@#ба ша4X ав€,,Д<,,Д<€вкЋˆLф*4HLф*б#px Œ P+X@#б С`\ф8СЋк в€ШШШШУ У1Ф ФШШШШУ У1Ф Ф€вкИ<<м<<<<б#px Œ P,X@#б 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Œ25 к ееbXб#ѕxžž@-X@#ба 4X4X аааџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџ˜  pШџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџАџџаа Срвк!СHeritage Reporting Corporationƒ Ср’к)С(202) 628Љ4888bеа 4Xша аааџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџшШР!џџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџАџџааћџ2D‡%Цg&Юm'Yвu( +~SEC FormatAvCAЦgSEC Case Format=pЖaХF2CACA_ЏMM‹ F-2 F-CA%АIJааааа ААHH аааџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџШ џџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџАџџаае<Xб#ѕxžž@.X@#ба ша4X аааџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџШ џџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџАџџаав€,,Д<,,Д<€вкLф*HLф*б#px Œ P/X@#бааџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџШ џџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџАџџаа С`\ф8Ск гаЁг<ееbXб#ѕxžž@0X@#ба 4X4X аааџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџШ 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ь!СУУOfficial ReportersФФƒ СрТьС1220 L Street, N.W., Suite 600ƒ СрЭьСWashington, D.C. 20005Љ4018ƒ Срrь#С(202) 628Љ4888ƒ СрЯь!Сhrc@concentric.netљеIn the Matter of:СС ) ССС` ` ССИ И С ) FORUM ON A NEW FCC СС ) FOR THE 21ST CENTURYСhh#С ) ССС` ` ССИ И ССС СС Pages:С` ` С1 through 118 Place:С` ` СWashington, D.C. Date:С` ` СJune 2, 1999еžее“ед0*oo  д ааа ААА аааXА` И hРpШ xа (#€%и'0*ˆ,р.813ш5@8˜:№0*H&H&@@дŒС` ` ССИ И СIt may be that FCC should think about finding moneys to provide technological assistance programs and training to industry, to the public in order that folks become more familiar with the various jurisdictions and their appropriate responsibilities, in regard to program access. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Thank you. Alan? С` ` ССИ И СMR. DINSMORE: I think most of us will probably agree that the FCC does have an information role. That's probably the easy part of it. I think the more difficult part of it is how do you configure yourself to do all the things that, I think, most of us agree need to be done? С` ` ССИ И СI could say, for example, in looking at your web site, we have had problems with that in that often the information up there is not accessible for a string reader, but to talk about it in a more universal sense about the kind of organizational change that you might have to think about in order to be effective, and I think you really do need to take that seriously, because of what I said earlier and what other people have said earlier that much of what is really important for citizens to know simply isn't expressed in media outside of some of the major media markets. С` ` ССИ И СThe FCC needs to look at that very carefully. And the suggestion I would make is to follow the example of one commenter from an industry not associated with the FCC,д€%?0*H&H&@@д except that they do Internet training now, which was the Charles Schwab Company. С` ` ССИ И СAnd they said when we set up ourselves in the information business, we had it as a separate entity, which when I think the way the FCC kind of tends to view information right now, it's something you do on the web site. С` ` ССИ И СAnd they said they never were really able to obtain the full advantage of being an effective participant in the information world that that company needs to be, until they began to realize that that information process has to be integrated in the way the whole company does its business. С` ` ССИ И СAnd that, I think, is something that the FCC needs to consider that you don't just have a web site to put up things that you get from the various bureaus and the comments, that you are in the information business now, just like everybody else is. С` ` ССИ И СAnd you need to think about what effect that has on your organization, because I have a sense that some of the reasons for the slips that other speakers have talked about, in terms of other things not being posted in a timely fashion or not being posted in a correct fashion, have to do often that you've still got this separation within the agency that we do all of our work with all of the docketsд€%@0*H&H&@@д over here and the information people are over here. С` ` ССИ И СAnd I think that has to change in order for that to become really effective, so that all of us can use it more effectively. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Thank you. Jeff? С` ` ССИ И СMR. KRAMER: Thank you. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: I think you're okay. С` ` ССИ И СMR. KRAMER: All right. I think, first of all, that the FCC very clearly has a role in consumer protection now and in the years ahead. And I think it's sort of a copout when people say, well, FCC maybe should abdicate that, because the FTC and the states and the local government -- I think it's clear to everybody that regulation and legislation can be crafted so that you're not pre empting the states or that you're not treading on FTC authority. С` ` ССИ И СAnd I think it's real important that that be taken into consideration. Also, I also think it's important to echo what some of the other people have said about the FCC getting outside the beltway. I know in talking to our members who call me, the press they get, for the most part, is that phone companies are suing the FCC, or the FCC's in court with somebody, or the FCC's doing this to us, or the court taxes the FCC. And that's all I'm hearing. С` ` ССИ И СNo one's really talking about the benefits thatд€%A0*H&H&@@д they get from these services. All they are talking about is how this is screwing us up, and we're ending up paying a lot more for these services. So, I think it's real important that the FCC spend time with consumers out in the hinterlands to explain to them what's going on. С` ` ССИ И СAnd the other thing is, I think, on the consumer protection side that the FCC, again, is going to have a unique role because, as some people have mentioned, the digital divide. And I think that's a real concern. I think there's going to need to be consumer protection for the low-end customer and for the high-end customer. С` ` ССИ И СI mean, you're going to see a lot of your telecommunications service providers marketing to these high-end customers, but I think there, even those customers are going to end up being confused or not know what services they are getting, what those services are, what they are paying for. С` ` ССИ И СAnd on the low end, you're going to have people who either aren't getting the services and should be, or who are getting services they don't even know they are getting. And I think, again, you're going to have all this confusion and there's a lot of -- С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Well, let's try sharpening just a little. What's the role, then, of the regulatory agency? Let's assume it's the FCC for the moment. Ensuring thatд€%B0*H&H&@@д customers are getting information about products and services being offered by competitive companies. С` ` ССИ И СShould the government, should the FCC say to companies, well, here's how you put that information out? Or should we be actually putting information out? Or should we be leading people to information? I'd like you to sharpen this a little and give me some input on that. And we'll get right over to you, Chip. С` ` ССИ И СMR. KRAMER: Well I think, for the most part, you should be leading people to the information. I think there are a lot of organizations, and I think voluntary AARP is one of them that's willing to help consumers with the information. I don't think you have the resources nor that's your role to be providing that information. But I think you can be instrumental in leading people to that information. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: I know that Chip may have an opposite view, so I'm going to let you come in so we can stir this pot a little bit. С` ` ССИ И СMR. DINSMORE: I want to respond to Jeff's view that people don't share his views have copped out somehow. I think there are two issues here we need to be clear about. One is I think I completely agree with people on this panel who said that the Commission needs to do a better job of informing the public about what it does and the decisionsд€%C0*H&H&@@д that it takes. С` ` ССИ И СWhen I made my comments, though, about consumer protection, if you assume we're living in a world where we can have all the government we want or that AARP wants, maybe there are no limits. But I think my view is that where we should be moving in this competitive environment in communications is so that communications as a commodity, if you will, is not unlike any other commodity in the economy. С` ` ССИ И СAnd we have consumer protection agencies at all levels of government that are set up to deal with protecting the consumer. If those agencies aren't doing their job, we ought to reform them. We shouldn't overlay them with the federal communications as a consumer protection agency. That's the point that I wanted to emphasize. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Somebody want to jump on that? Go ahead, Mike. С` ` ССИ И СMR. TRAVIESO: Yes. I sort of find it odd that I'm sharing a position with Chip but -- С` ` ССИ И СMR. SHOOSHAN: It's okay, Mike. С` ` ССИ И СMR. TRAVIESO: -- I think if you think about a company in the 21st Century providing services to the public, what you're going to have is a holding company that's going to have underneath of it a whole bunch of other companies. С` ` ССИ И СAnd it's going to be providing to residentialд€%D0*H&H&@@д customers cable service, Internet, energy, gas and electric, security systems, banking. And it'll also own, theoretically own, pipes and wires. And it'll be regulated. And we will all interact with companies like that. С` ` ССИ И СAnd if we get -- if bad things happen and we want to make a complaint or we want to go someplace to get relief, it doesn't make sense to me that we'd have to go to the FCC to complain about certain things and to the FTC to complain about certain things and to the FERC to complain about certain things, and perhaps, to a state commission to complain about certain things. С` ` ССИ И СNow, the organization that I've appeared before has jurisdiction over almost all of those things. In Maryland, you can go to one place, raise your issues, and get relief. С` ` ССИ И СMy view of the future is that on the federal side, there is a great need for consumer protection and consumer information and consumer education, but it's going to be a disservice to little guys and little customers if you have to go to five places and get referred back and forth and people, agencies keep saying, well, we can handle your phone problem, but maybe this is really a marketing issue that the FCC would have to deal with, because it's not really something you regulate. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: So, Mike, would you see the FTCд€%E0*H&H&@@д taking, for instance, as an example the whole of telecommunications consumer protection? С` ` ССИ И СMR. TRAVIESO: Now I would see the FTC as handling commodities, commodity-type issues. And I don't really disagree with Chip that all of these kinds of services are going to be commodities and that there needs to be a place for a consumer to go if they have complaints about that. And that's what happens at the State Commission. С` ` ССИ И СAnd we've advocated for our State Commission to have a consumer protection role for all the utility ЉЉ what used to be utility services and marketing and other things. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Let me push back a little on this commodity notion. What someone started -- I think it was you, David, who said well there's this box, but there's no way to get to it. And then, I thought you gave a wonderful statement about networks and how they need to be open and accessible in order to get, perhaps, the service or product. С` ` ССИ И СAnd I always, when I hear this commodity argument, wonder about this notion when these networks seem to be like our nervous system and is there something there about the nature of networks and our network of networks that causes us, perhaps, to look at it differently and, perhaps, causes citizen and consumer groups to warrant an expert agency to be involved? And I'll go to David since I used yourд€%F0*H&H&@@д language, I think. С` ` ССИ И СMR. NEUBERGER: Well, that's fine. I have fundamentally wondered about this. I have worried about the process of decisions that the Commission has made in this area, because it seems to me that, in many respects, the decisions have picked winners and losers in various segments of various industries. Whether it's broadcast or telecommunications, or whatever. The effect of decisions has been to pick winners and losers. And in my sense, that has been not a way to bring new technological innovation out to everybody. If I may, just to give you one example of a decision that has worried me a great deal, it was the ADSL decision to require the telephone companies, or at least the RBOCs, to do it through an affiliate, which had the effect of having the RBOCs sell on a selected basis, just like the competitors are selling on a selected basis and leaving the consuming public out, the residential public. С` ` ССИ И СWhile I certainly am disabled and speak from the point of view of disabled people, but I think I'm talking about a very broad segment of the residential population without getting -- having companies have the wherewithal, any kind of company having the wherewithal, to bring those ADSL services to all of our homes. С` ` ССИ И СAnd so, in one sense when you're reЉinventing the Commission, in my sense, I think that we only get theд€%G0*H&H&@@д competition when we have mutual facilities-based competition in the networks, and so that I think that what we need is to find ways. And I must say that if you make the reselling so cheap that I think that keeps people like the cable TV industry from coming into telecommunications, because those prices are so cheap at the RBOC level. С` ` ССИ И СSo that it seems to me that what we -- if we are picking anything, we ought to be getting to the point that we have multiple networks -- electric, utilities, cable television, hopefully wireless satellite, and hard wire systems that are competing into the same household. С` ` ССИ И СAnd at that point, we take advantage of competition. If that dream can happen, then competition will come. And I think that consumers will generally be protected. Then, it seems to me, that you come down to certain issues that only an agency can protect. And it seems to me that what we want to have is competition solve the vast bulk of the problems and then understand that markets have glitches, and they don't solve problems. С` ` ССИ И СMarkets do not make poor people wealthy. And so, we need government, to use government policy to support making -- helping poor people have adequate resources for the way that they live. Just recently, in my community, TCI came out with digital television and they did away with that Channel B in the audio, which did away with descriptiveд€%H0*H&H&@@д video. С` ` ССИ И СWell, we ЉЉ I mean, we can't have that. We've got -- can't be building barriers. We've got to be eliminating barriers. And that's what your role is. First, make competition realistic where people are going to head to head on a facilities basis and then come in and solve those problems that the government won't get to -- I mean, that the business won't get to and only the government can help us with. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: And there are quite a few people who would like to speak. So, let me just try and go around. Brad, you've had your card up for a little bit? С` ` ССИ И СMR. RAMSEY: Well, that was back on an earlier issue. But I just wanted to say, as far as migrating or centralizing consumer protection, I mean it's a good idea in an ideal world. But near-term, like in the next five years, it seems to me that the FCC has to stay in the business. С` ` ССИ И СWe're still in the middle of doing implementation, and I don't think you're going to be finished, at least for another couple of years and, you know, could be beyond that. And during the implementation phase, it doesn't strike me that it's appropriate for anybody -- any other agency to be trying to come up with the backstop. С` ` ССИ И СAnd I refer to them as a backstop, because of course nobody thinks that the primary enforcement should beд€%I0*H&H&@@д at the state level, but the backstop enforcement role for the FCC. One other thing that the agency, at least the state commissions believe is extraordinarily valuable is, you engage in information collection on what is going on in the industry, which helps other agencies at the state and federal level do their jobs. С` ` ССИ И СAnd that is a critical role for the FCC and one that nobody's gone on record in the nine years I've been here, at least six or seven times, saying that you need to keep doing it. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: So, Andy doesn't push off the table, I'm going to let him speak for a minute. С` ` ССИ И СMR. SCHWARTZMAN: I think that the discussion by itself answers some of the questions about how quickly it's possible to combine some of these functions in a different way, because I think that the answers here are reflecting the perspectives of the different issues that the people here have worked on. С` ` ССИ И СCertainly, since my principal concentration has been on the mass media side, I don't think that free expression and diversity of opinion and creation of a well-informed electorate is a commodity. I don't think that this is something that can simply be turned into something to be sold as broadcast licenses, like pork bellies. С` ` ССИ И СI think that there's a different function there. д€%J0*H&H&@@д More importantly, when we talk about the values of convergence and competition -- and I stress what was said before. And I know the Commission has a comprehension of this, but we speak loosely. Competition is a means, not an end. С` ` ССИ И СIf you've got one or two people in a particular industry, that's competition. We had competition with two cellular players, but it didn't really produce a whole lot of good. So, we can't use these terms too loosely. С` ` ССИ И СAs we move through convergence, you are now having cable operators and telephone companies through DSL becoming conduits for information that traditionally was available on over-the-air broadcasts. Information that relates exactly to how the public becomes informed on issues and ideas and participates in self-governance. The Commission cannot remove itself from that role, but the Commission certainly can facilitate it. We've talked about collection of information, pointing stuff out on the Internet. The Commission is getting the right idea, although it took a long time to realize that maybe putting tariffs on the Internet was helpful, not hurtful. С` ` ССИ И СAnd our prior Commission didn't understand that, and the current Commission does. But the Commission's information function is critically important, because the Commission can make the information be produced and producedд€%K0*H&H&@@д where there's some teeth that it's accurate. С` ` ССИ И СAnd the Commission has been very, very under -- it's been going the wrong direction, in terms of collecting information and making it accessible to the public in a meaningful way. С` ` ССИ И СJust last week cutting back well over 50 percent on the advances that have been made on the main studio and public -- rules in broadcasting, I think, was a real tragedy. As best I can tell, the FCC cannot produce an effective, meaningful good number on the penetration of cable systems in the United States.Сpp2ССpp2С MS. BROWN: Well, let's -- С` ` ССИ И СMR. SCHWARTZMAN: That kind of stuff you need to do in order to ultimately get out of the way. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Let's talk about that a little bit. The industry ought to come in and say that as it becomes more competitive, there's less reason for the government to be collecting information, because consumers can find the products or the service in the marketplace. So, we don't have to be tracking it. С` ` ССИ И СOthers have argued that, well, this is not a completely competitive marketplace, first of all; and secondly, that we don't know yet if it's competitive if we don't have some monitoring to understand what level of competition is out there. While you're talking, maybeд€%L0*H&H&@@д someone can give me some feedback on that. С` ` ССИ И СDebra, you had something? С` ` ССИ И СMS. BERLYN: Well yes, I did, Kathy. I'm not sure if we're -- С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Go ahead. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BERLYN: -- on that particular question, although I might hit it. A couple of things I wanted to say, first of all, it's always good to have at least one attorney in the room. I know we have several, but I agree with Jenell's pointing to the Act about the FCC's mission. С` ` ССИ И СAnd I think the law provides for the role that the FCC plays and that the Telecommunications Act actually added a role for the FCC to play in promoting competition. Underlining all of that is an important role, in terms of consumer protection. And I don't think any of that goes away, but it does evolve. It does change. С` ` ССИ И СAnd I think that the process that you're undergoing now is one that should continue. As the industry changes, whether it be through convergence, a level of competition that develops, I think the FCC can play an important role for itself in continuing to monitor that and look at ways in which you can evolve to protect consumers. С` ` ССИ И СOne example of what the FCC can do in a competitive market is what you just did in truth and billing. I think that was an example of how you stepped inд€%M0*H&H&@@д to give consumers better information when they are looking at multiple carriers. So, I think there is definitely a role to play to continue to protect consumers. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Karen? С` ` ССИ И СMS. STRAUSS: Very often, when the industry tries to say that they are going to be competitive, they try to suggest that the FCC has no role, as you suggested. But as David alluded to before, they are in fact in the area of disability's market forces are not effective. And that's the whole reason that the FCC has the responsibilities to implement the various sections of the 1996 Act. С` ` ССИ И СThere are sections in that law that require the FCC to monitor and to make sure that captioning takes place, that access takes place. Andy, I appreciate your kind words about the disability community. I'm glad that we're viewed as being so organized and so effective. С` ` ССИ И СUnfortunately, I would say that our effectiveness is largely limited to within the beltway, again, that there are people with disabilities out in the country that still have, as I mentioned before, no idea that many of these laws existed. С` ` ССИ И СAnd all you have to do is look at the numbers of complaints that the FCC has received on relay services on Section 255, which has been in effect since 1996, to see that most of these people actually have no idea of theirд€%N0*H&H&@@д protected rights. С` ` ССИ И СAnd so, not only because there are federal laws covering these access issues, but also I want to just comment on one other thing that Andy said; and that is, access is not a commodity, either. And access crosses virtually or nearly all FCC proceedings. Nearly all of your proceedings have some implication for access. С` ` ССИ И СI can't imagine another agency being able to interweave its obligations into making sure that access is provided in the various proceedings that come out of the FCC. So, as long as access is going to be mandated by federal law, there's going to be a role for the FCC to make sure that that access is carried out. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Maureen? С` ` ССИ И СMS. LEWIS: I want to say that I think it's very important for the FCC as a repository of some very specialized expertise continue to play a very active and effective role in consumer protection and in education. For the very point that Mike made about one-stop shopping, I think the FCC can really facilitate consumer complaints, because they have the opportunity to come to a federal agency that can then work with state and local government agencies in order to get redress to consumer complaints. С` ` ССИ И СI think it's very difficult for consumers to do, as Mike said, to bounce from agency to agency, but ifд€%O0*H&H&@@д because of the title of your agency's name, Communications, if the complaint or the issue relates to communications or communications services, I think it would be -- consumers would be very well-served to be able to come to the FCC that can then work in partnership with other organizations to help redress consumer issues. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Marcus? С` ` ССИ И СMR. JOHNSON: Thank you. I guess the point was made, I guess, going down the lines of, like, if we keep going, we'll have all the ЉЉ you know, people want all the government they want. But I want us to also recognize that the competing factor there is all the greed that you want. And, you know, we're talking about industry. С` ` ССИ И СMy first day of marketing at business school, I was told, like many other places, I'm sure all marketing classes, that you know what is marketing and business about? It's about money. So, when I look at the FCC, I look at you as more of the check and balance of what's going on around the country. You don't just have one function. С` ` ССИ И СYou mentioned about providing information and then somebody coming up and saying, well, you know this, that, and the other. I mean, you have to put it in context with all of the roles of FCC. I think, maybe, we want to talk about that, instead of saying the role. And figuring it out and of finding it, as it relates to getting, like, theд€%P0*H&H&@@д information out there, you know, you're asking for ideas. С` ` ССИ И СI may date myself here, but I was one of the people -- I had to take the citizenship test, so you know how young I am. But there are ways to empower the people, I think. And that's -- you know, if we go in and work with the states, as some people are advocating, maybe come up with some information to -- I mean, most people, my assumption is that most people don't even understand their rights about where they can go in the FCC to get the information that they need. С` ` ССИ И СAnd I figure if I can learn the same history for 12 years that, you know, one semester of learning about agency law, what the FCC will do for me, you know, that's not bad. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Thank you. Welcome, Mr. Chairman. Glad to see you. С` ` ССИ И СWe've been talking this morning about, in the last couple of minutes, about the role of the FCC, as we go forward, and consumer protection and sort of a different, a little different angle than consumer protection complaints, but also what and how do we ensure that we have the consumer role heard and understood in the ongoing proceedings we have to do, with respect to access to the airwaves, access to networks, access to new services. And that's where the discussion is right now. д€%Q0*H&H&@@дŒС` ` ССИ И СMR. KENNARD: Okay. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Would you like a couple of minutes, and then we can -- would you like to speak a little bit and then we can continue? С` ` ССИ И СMR. KENNARD: Okay. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Okay. С` ` ССИ И СMR. KENNARD: All right. Well, it's good to be here. I've been looking forward to this gathering. As you know, this is one of three forums that we're hosting here to hear from people about what the FCC should look like, what we should be doing, how we should be structured. С` ` ССИ И СAnd in my view, this is one of the most important things that we'll do in this process, because one of the things that I have learned as chairman of the FCC is -- I've learned a lot of things as chairman of the FCC. С` ` ССИ И СBut one of the most important lessons that I've learned is how difficult it is in this town, given the way policy is made in Washington today, to stay focused on your agenda and keep it moving, because the whole infrastructure of the town is designed to coЉopt your agenda. It is an unbelievable thing. С` ` ССИ И СYou know, we are daily assaulted by people who are paid a lot of money to basically take the agenda away from the five commissioners. And it's the most amazing thing. I mean, I've never had a job where so many people are paid soд€%R0*H&H&@@д much money to talk to me and tell me what to do. С` ` ССИ И СAnd it's not just the, you know, the people who are paid to do their work, the lawyers and the lobbyists, but it's the think tanks, it's the PR campaigns. It's the way that people are able to get hearings called in Congress. С` ` ССИ И СAnd you're called up there and not only are the hearings instigated often in this way, but the questions are planted. The most amazing thing happened to me in my confirmation. I was -- the night before my confirmation, one kind soul faxed me a stack of questions that were going to be asked of me in my confirmation. С` ` ССИ И СMany of them had been drafted by industry groups and not only -- they had the letterheads right there, you know, ask him this; if he says this, say this. You know, it's an amazing thing. And so we are challenged here, and I know many of you are in government, so you face the same challenges to find the true public in the public interest because what we hear most of, what is so easy for us to do is to hear what the shareholders' interests are, the economic interests, the industry interests. С` ` ССИ И СAnd sometimes, when you're in my position, just trying to articulate what this means to the average consumer or people who rely on these services is sort of an aside or an afterthought, because the press is always -- they're here. Okay. д€%S0*H&H&@@дŒС` ` ССИ И СUNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: They're always here. С` ` ССИ И СMR. KENNARD: The press is and I hope you're listening to this ЉЉ they are always inclined to pick winners and losers. Well, who's going to win and who's going to lose. Is it the RBOCs today, or is it the long-distance carriers? Is it the CLECs? You know, is it the cable industry? С` ` ССИ И СAnd so, our job is always to focus on, well, the winners always have to be consumers and the public and articulate that, you know, again and again. I, not long ago, this was really driven home to me when I took a cab, and I was just outside the office here. С` ` ССИ И СI jumped in a cab and the cab driver looked in the mirror and he said, you're the chairman of the FCC, aren't you? And I said, yes, that's me. And we chatted a little bit about my job and about his job. And he said, you know, I have -- I carry a lot of people around in this area and I ЉЉ you know, a lot of lawyers and lobbyists, people up on -- back and forth to Capitol Hill. And I hear them talking about you sometimes. And I said, well, do tell. And what are they saying about me? С` ` ССИ И СHe said, well, they say that they just can't figure you out, because you just don't play the game. And they don't know what you want. And they say that you don't cut deals. And when I heard that story, I felt that wasд€%T0*H&H&@@д probably the best compliment that I had ever received as chairman of the FCC, because then this guy went on to say, but that's okay with me, because I know that you're looking out for the little guy. С` ` ССИ И СAnd, you know, that day was really -- made everything I've gone through in this job worthwhile hearing that guy say that. But I tell this group this story, because we're all on the same team here. You know, we're trying to find the public in the public interest. С` ` ССИ И СAnd it is challenging for us to find ways to reach out to you, because you have limited resources. Many of you, you have organizations where you're stretched very thin. So, we have to come up with ways to make sure that you have an opportunity to participate in our processes. That's why we've set up advisory committees, and groups like the Local State Government Advisory Committee. С` ` ССИ И СThat's why we've reached out to NARUC in a very intense way. That's why we're going to set up a Disabilities Advisory Committee, why we hold forums like this. But it's very -- you have to really work hard to make this happen, because the whole of the infrastructure is designed to influence you in different ways. С` ` ССИ И СAnd you could do this job as a commissioner here and spend all of your time sitting in your office talking to people who are paid to talk to you and cutting deals. Andд€%U0*H&H&@@д many people have done it that way. But obviously, you know that we can't do it that way. And we've got to come up with structures to make it easier for people in my job, my successors to be able to more systematically reach out to this community. С` ` ССИ И СThat's why I have proposed setting up a public information bureau, because I think that the agency has to do a better job in reaching out to consumers outside the beltway and understanding what people care about, in terms of what we do and being able to be responsive. С` ` ССИ И СThat's why I've proposed setting up an enforcement bureau. We'll, hopefully, set up both of these bureaus before the end of the year where we have a different enforcement culture at the FCC. So much of the culture of the FCC right now is designed around writing rules and policies. С` ` ССИ И СAnd we need to shift the resources and focus of the agency more toward enforcing the rules that we have on the books, because as I've talked to many people who deal with the industry, they don't feel that we have an enforcement mechanism that works quickly enough and is aggressive enough. С` ` ССИ И СAnd I know, because I talk to people all the time who are focused on this process of FCC reform. And it means different things to different people. To some people, itд€%V0*H&H&@@д means eliminating the agency in a few years. To other people, it means not a frontal assault on the agency, but weakening the agency in a way that it can't enforce the rules, so that if we write great rules on 255, as we will, we won't have the resources to enforce them. So, that's why your input on this process is so vitally important, and not only the input in this process, but also just teaming with us on important issues. С` ` ССИ И СWe can do so much more when you stand with us on these issues that we all care about. That's why it was so important when we announced our new slamming rules that AARP stood with us and the National Consumers League. And that Karen Strauss and Claude and the organizations they represent are standing with us on the disabilities issues, because we can't do this alone. С` ` ССИ И СYou know, people will -- if we're alone, people will try to say that, oh, there he goes. He's off on his social agenda again. And they'll try to marginalize what we're doing. You've got to stand with us. Now, I will complete and hear more from you. С` ` ССИ И СThe last thing I'll say is I am more than happy to be a martyr for the issues that I feel passion about, about access for persons with disabilities and bringing telephone service to the Native American populations and improving minority ownership and employment. д€%W0*H&H&@@дŒС` ` ССИ И СI am more than happy to be a martyr to those issues. But I want to bring some of you all down with me. That's my message today. С` ` ССИ И С(Laughter.) С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: ЉЉ when the Chairman's feisty. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So with that little pep rally in the middle of a discussion, perhaps we should continue. And I think, Melanie, you've had your card up for so long that why don't I go to you? С` ` ССИ И СMS. BRUNSON: Thank you. I've been sitting here trying to kind of meld my reactions to several of the things that I've heard. And I guess, let me start by saying I'm kind of a neophyte to the communications policyЉmaking arena, but one of the things that occurs to me, as I'm sitting here, is that I'm not certain that we really -- that it's really appropriate to look at whether we should expand or diminish the role of the FCC so much as it is to focus it, perhaps, on just what the subject matter is. С` ` ССИ И СI think if you want to view communications as a commodity and say that that is the focus of the FCC, then I think the question would be that the -- the conclusion would be that the FCC's role would be to help both industry and consumers in determining what that commodity's going to look like, because the FCCs focus is communications. С` ` ССИ И СSo, whether you define that as a service or aд€%X0*H&H&@@д commodity, then the role of the agency is to help both sides, whether they be consumer or industry. And I suppose there's even more than both sides. There's multiple sides, the government, everybody in determining what that -- how that communication takes place, what it looks like. С` ` ССИ И СI think when we, as a consumer organization, go to industry, for instance, with some of our concerns, and their question becomes to us is, well, why should I pay attention to that segment of the market, what's in it for me, then I think your role as a commission is to help us to answer that question, be that you're saying to them well, yes, you can successfully and you should successfully compete for that aspect of the market to helping us to define that market for them. С` ` ССИ И СSo, it's not a question of really consumer protection versus industry or service versus commodity. It comes back to we are about communication and defining who is communicated with and how and where that communication takes place, and making sure that it's available to those who want to avail themselves of it, and making sure that the means are out there for them to do that. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Thank you, Melanie. And I think you hit a note that any number of people raised early on that, you know, we had a industry round table, and then we had a consumer round table. And any number of you said, what wereд€%Y0*H&H&@@д you thinking? We really need to be talking to each other and that one role that you, the FCC, can play is to facilitate that kind of communication. С` ` ССИ И СAnd I'll use this into a ЉЉ segment. I know there's some more people who want to talk. And I promise I will get to you. To how we can better facilitate that input, how we can -- it seemed to me, there are a number of things that were talked about. The informations or our output to you. What information ought we be providing to you and how. С` ` ССИ И СAnd then, I heard a lot about your input to us. How can we facilitate your input into our processes and into our decision-making? And not only into our processes and decision-making, but perhaps to the industry? С` ` ССИ И СAnd I think as we, as an example, worked through the 255 issues, we found it very helpful. Although I know frustrating on all sides at times, for the parties to be talking to each other, because if there are technical kinds of fixes early on, for instance, in the design of a particular piece of equipment, it's helpful for the industry to understand that and to actually focus on it. С` ` ССИ И СAnd so, one thing I thought that was very successful is our convening groups to be able to talk to each other about those things. So, I put that to you. The other thing that I asked the industry and I'll ask you, thisд€%Z0*H&H&@@д is a very paper-intensive organization. It does its work on paper, and it does its work through rules. С` ` ССИ И СAnd I wonder a lot -- a lot about that kind of process, paper process, and also this whole notion of rule-making in whether as we move into a more competitive environment if there is a role, whether that role really does shift from rules to enforcement, and what else. С` ` ССИ И СSo, let me go to Jane. I think you've been trying to get in here for awhile. С` ` ССИ И СMS. LAWTON: First, I appreciate the Chairman's remarks, and I think he certainly -- a lot of us had made notes. And we just had to scuttle what we were going to say, because you've said it all. Right? You did say a lot about it. С` ` ССИ И СI think it's interesting to think about government. I was just sitting here thinking about this. I think that both levels of government, all levels of government -- state, local, and federal -- our staffs and ourselves, management level and also our staffs are really students. We have to continue to be students. С` ` ССИ И СAnd so, at the FCC, I think your staff and you all have been challenged to learn, first of all, in this huge telecommunications evolution to learn about the technology and about its capabilities and what it means and how it's going to change the way we're living. And then, secondly,д€%[0*H&H&@@д you have been challenged by industry. And I think industry has taught you that. For the most part, they have been your constituency in the past, and they have been the people you've been closest to. And so, secondly, then they started teaching, I think, about the global marketplace. С` ` ССИ И СAnd so, a lot of your staffs are truly students of the global marketplace and of the technology. But I think there's a huge disconnect between the decisions that are made, even the smallest decisions, and their impact on the consuming public and on state and local government, too. С` ` ССИ И СAnd so, what I'm asking you to become now in the -- more of what we're facing in this evolution, the deployment of the services and the actual receipt of the services by people is to become students of local and state government processes and the consumer movements. С` ` ССИ И СAnd to think about the fact that, even though local governments look sometimes tedious or are portrayed to you to be that, that there are purposes behind the laws that they have passed and the regulations that they have put in place. С` ` ССИ И СAnd some of them, as Marilyn said, are we're different entities. And some of us move more quickly than others. And some of us are able to do things better than others. But I think that the purpose behind our laws are similar to yours. And so, we share that. д€%\0*H&H&@@дŒС` ` ССИ И СAnd as Chip says, I don't think we want more government regulation, but we want to use efficiently both levels of government. And there is a place for efficiency, and there's a place to challenge all of us to listen also to industry, which goes to the idea that we need to be together. С` ` ССИ И СAnd I know, in our county, we've tried -- and it's amazing to sit down with industry, and particularly in wireless and some of the other now in telecom. And so, what are your biggest challenges? What do you need? And they have said, we need speed and reliable processes, et cetera. And we've tried at the local level to put that in place. С` ` ССИ И СAnd I think that's what ЉЉ the kinds of things we need to challenge local government to step up to the plate, change their processes, and become efficient themselves. But we can't lose sight of the fact that their laws and their rules are supportive of the same kind of goals that you're supportive of. С` ` ССИ И СAnd that says that pre-emption is something that you should try not to do if, in fact, you can avoid it and if you can reach out first and try to understand what local regulatory schemes are. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Thank you, Jane. Lee? С` ` ССИ И СMR. RUCK: Quite a bit of discussion here on just what consumer protection is and what it means. The Chairmanд€%]0*H&H&@@д said it's looking out for the little guy. I think it was Maureen who mentioned that we're talking about one consumer at a time. С` ` ССИ И СI think it is important, as Jane just mentioned, that where there is something that is clearly a national policy issue, that the national government set that particular policy and set in motion the way to enforce it where there has not been a national policy, either set by Congress, or even just historically by the common law that, you know, that we allow the states and the local governments to use their own local needs to set that. С` ` ССИ И СOne of the things that was successful in the early days of civil rights protection in the EEOC was the concept of the deferral agency. And this worked very well in many instances. And it may very well be that what would be appropriate where the FCC has limitations in staff, has limitations in the ability to actually create the mechanisms so that each consumer can be protected, even if it is a national policy, is that you make use of state and local governments. С` ` ССИ И СJust a couple of numbers. Fifty states and the District of Columbia, 3,100 counties, 79,000 cities, towns and townships, all of which have police power authority. That's over 80,000 jurisdictions which have their own state constitutional ability to exercise health, safety, andд€%^0*H&H&@@д welfare for the benefit of their residents. С` ` ССИ И СIf you add to that the educational involvement and what you're trying to do in consumer protection in reaching people, even through PEG channels, avenues of that nature, bring in the educational community, you're talking over 15,000 employ ЉЉ I'm sorry, 15 million employees who, once educated ourselves, are available to educate others as to exactly what you're trying to do. There is an opportunity here for a very real partnership among all levels of government. С` ` ССИ И СAnd it is something that I think puts the FCC, in a position or could put the FCC in a position to both support us when we are acting as laboratories in the public interest, and to allow us to support you when the policy decision has been made to ensure that it is enforced, one consumer at a time until it applies nationally. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Thank you, Lee. Eric? I'd like to let Eric and then we'll come back to you, Jenell.С@СС@С MR. MENGE: I had a couple of ideas on possibly the things the Commission could do to increase the flow of information communication. The first one is use of compliance guides. С` ` ССИ И СIf the Commission could take the rules it has and put them in a condensed, easy-to-read, easy-to-understand format on the specific issues, for example, kind of what the FCC has done regarding how to file a comment -- how to fileд€%_0*H&H&@@д complaint on its web site. The FBI has put together a Compliance Guide, regarding CALEA and it has proved extremely helpful. And we think that advocacy believes that compliance guides would really help take the information, put it in a digestible form, help the little guy understand what it is the FCC is requiring him or her to do. С` ` ССИ И СThe other idea I was having was on how to cut down on the amount of paper and to get more interaction. It occurred to me when I was going through the 706 MPRM that the proposals and MPRM Act -- MPRM were extremely vague. As a consequence the comments, reply comments, were all the large industries covering their bases on everything. С` ` ССИ И СSo, I had hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pages of comments to go through. And if you're trying to run a business, you can't read that stuff. It's too dense. С` ` ССИ И СAnd so, my recommendation is not to have MPRMs with vague proposals, but to have actual text, what the rule is you are proposing in the rule and say we're suggesting this, comment on this, because if you have a vague proposal, you're going to get lots of vague answers. And that tends to take lots of words. Those were my two ideas I had. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Thank you, Eric. Jenell? С` ` ССИ И СMS. TRIGG: Thank you. Kathy, you asked a, not so long ago, a question about is there still a role for the FCC to collect information if indeed there's, quote, unquote,д€%`0*H&H&@@д "competition." I think you need to define competition. I am concerned that, for example, in broadcasting, that it's considered that one entity that owns eight stations in a market is full and vigorous competition. С` ` ССИ И СWell, where there's a holding company of a particular telecommunications service that has multiple companies, maybe 10s, 20, or whatever, that are providing services across the board ЉЉ but, again, it all goes back to the top. I think that's important, at least at this stage until full implementation of the 1996 Act, to still take a look at some of the corporate structures to ensure that competition is truly vigorous; it's being offered by a diversity of companies, diversity of voices, not just a large number of companies in a particular area. С` ` ССИ И СI think it's important to look at what types of services are offered. It's great that you've got, maybe 10, 20 different, you know CLECs, in a community. But who are they providing services to? And, again, there are different types of consumers. There are small business, large business, residential. Are all of those 20, or so, companies offering services to the same type of consumer? Where does the competition break down? С` ` ССИ И СAlso, I'd like to address the commodity issue. I'm a little concerned, and I agree with Andy, when you're looking at broadcasting as a commodity, but I'm alsoд€%a0*H&H&@@д concerned when you're looking at telecommunications. I don't know too many commodities that can benefit or devastate entire communities if there's no access to a service. С` ` ССИ И СNow, if there's no access to orange juice at competitive and reasonable rates, you can drink something else. You don't have that alternative when you're looking at advanced telecommunications services, basic telephone services. You also don't look at First Amendment, fundamental citizenship issues in commodities, as we know them. С` ` ССИ И СSo, I doubt that telecommunications should ever, much less than can ever, become a commodity if you're not looking then at a commodity, then you're really looking at the different types of consumer protection. If you're looking at consumer protection when it comes to fraud, surely the FTC can address that. But the type of consumer protection that's fundamental right now is inherent in the nature of the telecommunications industry. It is inherent in the way the technology works with companies, the convergence of companies, how they relate to each other. And only the expert agency for telecommunications can address those issues. С` ` ССИ И СThey shouldn't have to rise to the level of a consumer issue, because by then someone's already beenд€%b0*H&H&@@д harmed if, indeed, you can prevent some of those problems at your regulatory and your policy-making stage. So at this point, I really think we're defining different types of consumer protection. And I don't think telecommunications is a commodity that the FCC can just ignore that. С` ` ССИ И СIt makes a difference on how communities interact, how people get jobs, how kids get educated, health care, all of these things. And I know of no commodity that provides those benefits or doesn't provide those benefits to our communities. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Thank you, Jenell. I'm going to go up the side and around. And then, also keep in mind there's about 25 minutes left, so if someone wants to comment on some of the organizational issues we raised, too, and you want to include them in your comments, we'll be happy to hear them. С` ` ССИ И СDebra? С` ` ССИ И СMS. BERLYN: Thank you, Kathy. I want to offer a couple of suggestions, as well, to increase consumer input. First, the role that consumers play here at the FCC is limited by lots of rules and the way of the road. You talk -- you mentioned paper proceedings as one example. С` ` ССИ И СI don't know how many folks around this room have looked at a two-week window for reply comments when you have to read thousands of pages of documents, something that isд€%c0*H&H&@@д not very taxing for the industry that have a long lists of lawyers who can do that. But for consumer groups, I think that limits the participation that we can have. С` ` ССИ И СNow, that does conflict with my other suggestion that you act expeditiously on these issues. But what I might suggest is that in some of these proceedings where there is a value to consumer input, that you do both or one of these things. One is to offer, perhaps, a longer window for consumers to reply and give them an additional week or two to provide comment. С` ` ССИ И СThe other would be to direct a specific number of questions to consumer organizations that you would like to get comment on so that they are not faced with a long list of issues that they don't necessarily need to respond to. I also think it's important in some way to involve consumers in the decision-making process at the FCC. С` ` ССИ И СI'm looking at the example of the Universal Service Joint Board. To get consumer input, we could have had a process of just involving consumers in meeting with joint board members. But instead, we actually have a joint board member who is a consumer advocate and involving consumers in the formal process of decision-making, I think, is absolutely crucial. С` ` ССИ И СYou do have an Advisory Committee for State and Local Governments. And now you're setting up an advisoryд€%d0*H&H&@@д committee for the disabled community. I would urge you to consider a similar advisory committee that brings in a group of consumer advocates to work with the FCC and serve in an advisory role. С` ` ССИ И СAnd finally, I'd like to support your idea of convening some forums between industry and consumer organizations. I think that would be valuable, especially if we had some very specific issues to address. I think that would be interesting for all. С` ` ССИ И СAnd finally, I'd like to say that, Chairman, instead of us all going down with the ship, I hope that we can all be here for you. I think most of us around this table share your mission. And so, I hope we can be there to help push all of us up. Thank you. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Joanne? С` ` ССИ И СMS. KUMEKAWA: Thanks. I'd like to agree with Debra on the two-week turnaround for comments. And maybe, another way to address that is to have some type of automatic notification on the web site. Let's say, if you apply for automatic notification for a particular subject and you happen to be on that list, perhaps, that might address that issue. С` ` ССИ И СSo, you'd be automatically notified for that particular issue, not that you want to notify a million people. I understand that. I wanted to go back also toд€%e0*H&H&@@д your comment about moving from rule-making to enforcement. And I think that also speaks to the idea of making decisions very quickly as you move away from rule-making and look more towards enforcement. С` ` ССИ И СI have a question, really, for you all which is that can you think about allowing a certain package, let's say, of stuff or services, or whatever it is that an industry member might want, with the understanding that they have to meet certain requirements, something that I think Eric was talking about? С` ` ССИ И СYou know, you have a certain set of requirements or you have a certain set of things that you have to do in order to get something that you want, also the idea of regulating more broadly and don't sweat the small stuff. And I'm not sure whether or not that's what you mean by moving away from rule-making towards enforcement. С` ` ССИ И СIs that what you mean by sort of -- could no longer sort of, focusing on every little detail, but really regulating sort of more broadly. And finally, you know, as someone else said, focusing. What are you focusing on? Is it first competition? Because, certainly, we would support that. С` ` ССИ И СWe believe that if you are really focused on competition, that a lot of the problems will be solved. And the ones that aren't solved, again, will be those that theд€%f0*H&H&@@д FCC will have to enforce. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Thank you, Joanne. Let me go to Maureen, and then we'll try to -- let's try to get everyone in in the next 10 minutes, which means you have to -- narrow the Reader's Digest edited edition. С` ` ССИ И СMS. LEWIS: Well, I did want to reЉenforce something that you said about the FCC's role as sort of a convener of stakeholders. I think that's a very, very important role for the FCC to play at two levels. С` ` ССИ И СFirst of all, at the consumer complaint stage, I think the FCC has a great opportunity to resolve consumer complaints quickly and expeditiously if, in fact, its first point of contact for consumers, those consumer counselors, if you will, are well-trained in mediation and dispute resolution and have the ability to pull the interested parties together quickly to try to hash things out before issues escalate, because I think one thing that's very frustrating for consumers is the delay that they sometimes face in getting their issues resolved. С` ` ССИ И СSometimes, it's just a matter of a quick phone call from a neutral third party to help facilitate a discussion. The other thing is I wanted to echo a recommendation that I've heard around the table on several occasions are field hearings. I think that's an excellent opportunity for the Commission to get first-hand informationд€%g0*H&H&@@д about what consumers want and care about. С` ` ССИ И СAlso, the last thing I wanted to mention is a joint conference on the implementation of Section 706. It is a task force-kind of idea that we would like to see sort of on the model of the Local and State Advisory Committee to help bring together the federal and state regulators on implementing Section 706 quickly. The states can provide an excellent laboratory for implementation of broad ban deployment and -- С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Thank you, Maureen. Al? I know your card has been up for awhile. С` ` ССИ И СMR. SONNENSTRAHL (Sign Interpreter Speaking): Thank you. There are many things that have been covered here. And I've been thinking about what the relay service is, in regards to the ADA, the Americans with Disabilities Act, which was passed in 1990 and mandated that FCC write rules and order the common carriers to provide relay services. С` ` ССИ И СAnd as a result, we have 50 states that have taken responsibility to make sure that the relay services are provided. And the mechanisms of providing this service vary amongst the 50 states. The rules vary. There's a lot of comedy of errors, if you will, going on amongst the states, between the states. And still, the FCC has not yet gotten involved. д€%h0*H&H&@@дŒС` ` ССИ И СSo I think that, then, creates -- I don't want to use the word advisory, but I think the idea of creating an administrative board within the FCC to monitor and survey technology and to provide technology assistance and even to force the regulations, I think that might be an example of a model that other programs are using today. So, I just wanted to raise that thought. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Thank you, Al. Let me go to David. And then, I'll come back. С` ` ССИ И СMR. NEUBERGER: I wanted to specially address your question on enforcement mechanisms, because while I may be a consumer advocate, I'm also a member of the Bar. And when you say you're thinking about shifting to an enforcement focus, to me, that raises the immense amount of litigation that you're talking about undertaking and a variety of problems happen. С` ` ССИ И СOne, people won't have standing to comment. Things will be done on a case-by-case basis. So, other parts of the community may have a hard time bringing their thoughts to bear, which is a reservation. And secondly, of course, the standard for review shifts away from abuse of authority, which then means that everything runs to the courts. And so, we pile on the litigious society. С` ` ССИ И СI do think that it is very significant and very important that you do try to enforce the rules that are outд€%i0*H&H&@@д there. And I do have, as I've indicated, a lot of questions about rules that are out there. But rules should be enforced in some kind of consistent fashion. С` ` ССИ И СI wonder whether one can use enforcement in a policy developing kind of role, because I think that's what a lot of the enforcement issues are going to become if you move in that direction. С` ` ССИ И СBy introducing some kind of a mechanism for alternative dispute resolution, which is the same concept, in my mind, as the collaborative sessions that everybody is supporting that we should be meeting together and talking with all of the interested people. I've watched with some interest what went on in Texas in their 271 proceeding where they seem to have reduced, at least the number of issues that they are battling out to a much smaller number. So enforcement, in just a quasi-judicial sense, is scary because of the volume of business that you're going to have and the backlogs that you could create. С` ` ССИ И СAnd, you know, you could just find yourself permanently in the federal courts, but finding a way to move between enforcement and rule-making through alternative dispute resolutions, collaborative processes, incentives that if somebody can work it out in a collaborative process, then they're relieved from some burden in another way or a whole set of mechanisms to make that possible. д€%j0*H&H&@@дŒС` ` ССИ И СI remember, just as one last thought, that one of the books, I think it's Von Bright, refers to the utility regulation process as a quasi-judicial and a quasi-legislative proceedings. And Lord only knows what that means. But I think that's what I'm suggesting. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Those of us that have been around in awhile know. Claude? С` ` ССИ И СMR. STOUT (Sign Interpreter Speaking): Thank you. I do have several short comments. I'm hearing again and again telecommunications mentioned as a commodity. And I want to make sure that I've followed the conversation entirely. But I want to assert again that we in the disabled community have a basic right to quality telecommunications services. That must not be forgotten. С` ` ССИ И СSecondly, if you'll remember my comment in regards to Disability Issues Task Force, they do not have enough staff. And I want to reiterate again that they need a full component on that task force meaning increased staffing. And, perhaps, the name should be changed. Perhaps there shouldn't be a task force because that implies a temporary mechanism. С` ` ССИ И СPerhaps, it needs to be something that implies a permanent mechanism. Maybe there needs to be a department of I don't know disability access. Again, I applaud Chairman Kennard for his work, in terms of disabilityд€%k0*H&H&@@д access, in regards to the potential of an advisory committee. And we certainly look forward to that group being established. С` ` ССИ И СNow, I would strongly encourage that the location of the now current DITF not be somewhere stuck in the middle of the FCC, in terms of the bureaucracy. I would suggest that the DITF be placed in the Office of the Chairman, and that way, there is the intrabureau authority and oversight available to the various bureaus in order to get a more immediate response to issues that come before the Chairman. С` ` ССИ И СThese are some of my thoughts. Thank you. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Thank you very much. Chip? С` ` ССИ И СMR. SHOOSHAN: Thanks, Kathy. When I came here today, I thought I was going to be talking mostly about organizational issues. And that is the tail end of this discussion. С` ` ССИ И СBut I really think that bringing it around to the focus of today's panel, consumer confidence I think in the Commission, when all is said and done, means confidence in the decisions the Commission makes and the decision-making process the Commission goes through. С` ` ССИ И СAnd it seems to me, I recall when I first started in this area 30 years ago as a young staffer for the House Commerce Committee and I was sort of -- I was concerned about the way in which decisions were made at the FCC inд€%l0*H&H&@@д those days. I watched the pendulum swing very far in the other direction. And I'm not sure it's been all to the good. С` ` ССИ И СI can't do justice in a couple of minutes to the whole solution that I recommend here, but in the УУFederal Communications Law JournalФФ last year, in May of last year, I wrote an article about -- with a ЉЉ entitled, "A Modest Proposal for Reinstructing the FCC". And what I suggested there is there is a model we could look at. And that's the model in the UK of a single administrator. And the more I thought about these issues -- and I'll bring it back to decision-making in a minute -- the more I'm persuaded that that's not what we have to go to. С` ` ССИ И СIt's not one you can go to yourself. You're going to need Congress to step in. And I'm not saying what about Congress' willingness to do that, because I think to some extent they don't want to give up the multiple pressure points that come with having multiple Commissions, as the Chairman spoke about or alluded to earlier. С` ` ССИ И СBut I think from a consumer perspective, going to a civil administrator makes a lot of sense. One, it reduces cost. And all of us, as taxpayers, should be concerned at some point about the cost of government and bringing that into check. The second thing is I think it improves decision-making. I look at the way decisions are made now.д€%m0*H&H&@@дŒС` ` ССИ И СI look at the decisions themselves. The decisions of the FCC are basically long recitation of what the parties say. And then, there's a very brief discussion of what the Commission's decision is. And, largely, that's a hodgepodge of putting together a variety of different, sometimes conflicting, positions. There's no road map there. There's no real vision. There's no direction. Contrast those decisions with the decisions, for example, of Oftel in the UK. Whether like them or not, you can see that philosophy, that pathway through those decisions. С` ` ССИ И СSecondly, the way in which decisions are made, I think, the Government and Sunshine Act has brought with it a lot of problems. I mean, the open meetings today are a joke. What they -- unless you think that your interests are being protected by the Sunshine Law, you know what's happened. С` ` ССИ И СThe decisions are forced into the back room, and the Commissioners can't even participate. That has to be done by staff because, God forbid, if more than three Commissioners, or three or more Commissioners got together, it would be a meeting. С` ` ССИ И СYou can have all the advisory groups in the world, but the kinds of real dialog you need is the ability to sit down with the Commission, yes, with the doors closed and have a real discussion. And with a single administrator,д€%n0*H&H&@@д you can get that. С` ` ССИ И СBut even if you stay with a multi-member Commission, you really ought to look at fundamental changes in the way in which the Commission does its business. And going back to a point the Chairman made earlier, it will also improve what I call positive accountability. When those decisions are made, you will know who is responsible for that decision. С` ` ССИ И СAnd that single administrator will have to defend the decision. And similarly, when I emphasize positive accountability, he or she will have to stand on the basis of those decisions. And it won't be the kind of negative accountability that we have now where these competing interests try to paralyze the Commissioner, find three votes to be against the Chairman so, as a result, nothing gets done. С` ` ССИ И СSo I think again just to wrap it up, and again, there are more details in the article, that the best way to preserve consumer faith in the Commission and ЉЉ is to change fundamentally the way in which the Commission is structured, change the way in which the Commission makes decisions, yet prove its accountability. С` ` ССИ И СAnd I think that can be done by a fundamental reform, as I said earlier, a leaner, meaner and less-seen Commission in the future. But I think it would be a bigд€%o0*H&H&@@д step in the right direction. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Thank you, Chip. I want to be very mindful of people's time. We have about six minutes to when we said we would break. So, let me ask -- may I ask everyone, is there something that you wanted to say that you didn't get to say? Is there something that has not been covered yet that we had best get on the record? And let me just -- Karen? С` ` ССИ И СMS. STRAUSS: I just wanted to add to something that David had said before, in terms of FCC, rather than in terms of FCC proceedings. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is negotiated rule-makings. And a few years ago, we had an enormously successful negotiated rule-making on hearing aid compatibility. С` ` ССИ И СThe thing to do however is not to have a notice of inquiry, and then an MPRM, and then a negotiated rule-making. I think that the FCC should consider, even though I realize that a lot of people in this room may groan because it's so resource-intensive, it was so successful and has been successful ever since that I would encourage the FCC to consider more of those at the outset. С` ` ССИ И СSecondly, I want to support what Eric said, in terms of having text in proposed rules. I found that very helpful years back when the FCC used to do it. It was very helpful to have something actually in text, so that when theд€%p0*H&H&@@д final rule came out, it didn't look completely different than the notice that was proposed. So, I would encourage the FCC to go back to that policy.Сјј1ССјј1СMS. BROWN: Thank you, Karen. Jim? С` ` ССИ И СMR. HOWSE (Sign Interpreter Speaking): Hello. I support very much what Al and Claude commented in regards to the Disabilities Issues Task Force. There are times when there's a person who might have some sensitivity to an issue when, in fact, the person who actually has a disability might be able to be more effective. And I think the Commission might consider having people who can actually provide those kinds of insights to the FCC's point of view. Thank you. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Thank you, Jim. Go ahead, Mike.СX X EССX X EСMR. TRAVIESO: Yes, real quickly. I would just urge that the FCC have its regulatory structure respond to the market structure. And by that, I mean, there are going to be products and services which are going to be competitive. There are going to be networks that need to be regulated so competitors can have access to them, open access, and nondiscriminatory access. And there are going to be issues like universal service, which really are social issues, but I think have to be dealt with by the government. С` ` ССИ И СAnd finally, I think on the products and service side and the competitive side, the FCC, if not theд€%q0*H&H&@@д government in general, somehow needs to coordinate with state and local agencies to provide data on things like bad practices that they've observed, the pattern of bad practices, a complaint registry on companies that lot's of complaints have been made against, information that can be shared with the state and local agencies that will allow them to benefit from the FCC's broad jurisdiction. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Thank you. Andy? С` ` ССИ И СMR. SCHWARTZMAN: Thanks. I appreciate your generosity in giving another chance to speak. And I will be brief. One of the things throughout has been the difference in the way in which industry is treated at the Commission versus members of the public and some of the inevitable problems that come from differences in resources when, as the Chairman says, there are people paid to spend all of their time here knocking on doors or, in current circumstances, waiting downstairs phoning up ЉЉ С` ` ССИ И С(Laughter.) С` ` ССИ И СMR. SCHWARTZMAN: ЉЉ and getting voice mail. But, as I've said, I think this is a mindset problem, lodged in the staff. The people on the eighth floor are inherently more political and are more receptive. And that's a kind of weird irony, but it's -- I trace it back to staff changes during the Reagan era. But that's -- it's a mindset, and it's much harder to get heard. д€%r0*H&H&@@дŒС` ` ССИ И СIn order to focus and in order to improve the quality of the decision-making that's regarded, it does seem to me that it would be useful to determine whether particular proceedings which the Commission is involved may have some significant impact on the general public. I mean, you can exclude type acceptance and engineering kinds of things and, you know, but where there's going to be an impact on the public, how about including a consumer impact or public impact statement along the lines of the small business impact that Congress has required? С` ` ССИ И СWell, Congress hasn't required a public impact statement explicitly, although I would think the public interest standard suggests it. But I don't think members of Congress would object if you are explaining what the impact on the general public is and you did that on a routine basis. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Thank you. Was there somebody in the audience who wanted to offer a comment? Anyone? С` ` ССИ И С(Pause.) С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Can you give your name, please? С` ` ССИ И СUNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: ЉЉ how to proceed here ЉЉ С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Could you give your name? That's fine. С` ` ССИ И СMR. MEADOWS (Sign Interpreter Speaking): Certainly. My name is Lee Meadows. And I'm from the stateд€%s0*H&H&@@д of Massachusetts. I came here because I've been a longЉtime advocate for telecommunications and cable television. I am involved in a town board for cable access and telecommunication issues and problems. I represent consumers, deaf consumers that is, in my local area. С` ` ССИ И СI have become concerned about the relationship that those consumers have. I'm not talking about industry, but rather consumers. If there's an issue with a TV station providing captioning, then there might be meetings to discuss improving the qualities of the captioning service, but I get -- well, there doesn't seem to be much knowledge out there about captioning. С` ` ССИ И СAnd in regards to the political information and all the rule-making, and whatnot, I don't know that information is available. We tried to contact the FCC and we found out that there is an office at the airport, near the airport. And so, it wasn't generally accessible in terms of making a call to get information or to get feedback. There's a concern about the interpretation. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Are you talking about captioning at the airport? С` ` ССИ И СMR. MEADOWS (Sign Interpreter Speaking): No, I'm not talking about captioning in the airport. I'm talking about calling the FCC, their regional office. I looked in the phone book and it said at the airport. And my issueд€%t0*H&H&@@д didn't have to do with the airport. Does that make sense? So, I feel like we need to have a place where the FCC can be called in order to work with consumers better. That's my issue. С` ` ССИ И СI know that there's been a lot of meetings, but I would appreciate having the FCC staff there, so that we might work more effectively. I'm sure the FCC knows about technology. They probably know a lot more than we do. С` ` ССИ И СAnd so, it would be nice to have the FCC represented there in order to help us work together; that is, industry and consumers more successfully. I thank you for letting me take some of your time. I appreciate it. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Thank you very much. Al? С` ` ССИ И СMR. SONNENSTRAHL (Sign Interpreter Speaking): I believe that what Lee was trying to say related to what we were talking about earlier in regards to improving relationships with citizens. That is, outside of the beltway, as he evidenced in terms of his frustration at trying to contact the FCC when outside of the beltway. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: Yes. Thank you. Well, this has been, I think, just for us a wonderful discussion. And I think it's given us a lot to think about. Let me just say to you what I think I've heard in the broadest sense. And we've taken notes on all of this. We've talked about structural issues. We've talked about very specific kinds ofд€%u0*H&H&@@д structural issues, a functional kind of approach to structure here at the FCC. С` ` ССИ И СAnd then, we've talking about OCBO, and we've talked about the Disabilities Task Force. We've talked about the use of advisory committees and how we might incorporate that into our thinking when we're thinking structural issues. We've talked about process issues. С` ` ССИ И СAnd there, we've talked both about how to better get citizen input into our processes; how to think more about local state government connections and interactions; how always to work with our state regulatory colleagues; how we might do field hearings outside the beltway and you've been very clear about that. And how to generally open our processes, including our web site. С` ` ССИ И СWe heard very clearly to get better input to use technology better. I heard about the use of video, as well as the Internet to try and be more places. We heard a lot of about access, a lot about access and how access to the airwaves, access to networks, access to information, access to the decision-makers. I think, that's a theme of this conversation that we will try to capture. С` ` ССИ И СAnd then, we did an awful lot of talking about what is consumer protection, where and who ought to be thinking about consumer protection. What are some transition issues as we move from a monopoly to aд€%v0*H&H&@@д competitive environment? And then, what does it look like going out? And there were really very many, very good suggestions that you've given us. So, we want to thank you. С` ` ССИ И СOur next step is to, yet, have another of these forums with those think tank types and get that input. And then, we will have some internal discussions. And it occurs to me that at some stage after we then put all this together, that, and now my staff is going to jump up and strangle me, but that it would be well worth it after we have a document to try one of those forums where we have an integrated group to say, well, here's what we came up with. Now, what do you think? С` ` ССИ И СAnd so, I will commit to doing that. I think that could be fun. And I -- С` ` ССИ И СUNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Remember she's from New York. С` ` ССИ И СMS. BROWN: I'm from New York. And I think very worthwhile if we're going to present that to the Congress. So, again, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank all of you. С` ` ССИ И С(Whereupon, at 1:04 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.) // // // //д€%w0*H&H&@@д д ‰? даагЁ!агааг w га АА аааX` И џџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџXИ џџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџџааеШдееVе„[ЕСрСHeritage Reporting Corporationƒ Сра&С(202) 628Љ4888VеУ УСр№"СУУREPORTER'S CERTIFICATEФ ФФФƒ д ‰?X дУ УFCC DOCKET NO.Ф Ф:С СN/A д ‰?ш дУ УCASE TITLEФ Ф:С СFORUM ON A NEW FCC FOR THE 21ST CENTURY д ‰?x дУ УHEARING DATEФ Ф:С СJUNE 2, 1999 д ‰? дУ УLOCATIONФ Ф:СИ И СС СWASHINGTON, DC СИ И СI hereby certify that the proceedings and evidence are contained fully and accurately on the tapes and notes reported by me at the hearing in the above case before the Federal Communications Commission. Date: __6Љ2Љ99__ ___Sharon Cook_______________ Official Reporter Heritage Reporting Corporation 1220 "L" Street, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20005 д ‰?Р дСр<!СУ УУУTRANSCRIBER'S CERTIFICATEФ ФФФƒ СИ И СI hereby certify that the proceedings and evidence were fully and accurately transcribed from the tapes and notes provided by the above named reporter in the above case before the Federal Communications Commission. Date: __6Љ10Љ99_ ___Terri Mathews______________ Official Transcriber Heritage Reporting Corporation д ‰?А дУ УСр<!СУУPROOFREADER'S CERTIFICATEФ ФФФƒ СИ И СI hereby certify that the transcript of the proceedings and evidence in the above referenced case that was held before the Federal Communications Commission was proofread on the date specified below. Date: __6Љ14Љ99_ _George McGrath_______________ Official Proofreader Heritage Reporting Corporation